I asked my network of family and friends to share their experiences and thoughts on Untouchability in 2020. I have blogged some of their responses sans ID so everyone is protected:
Received following Comments:
Comment: 1
I personally have no difference between the touchable and untouchable. The prevalence of untouchabIlity all over TN is obvious except on big cities and towns. In villages and suburbans, there is gradual reduction of differentiation. The double glass system and separate burial or burning ghats are also prevalent in small villages. But it is really shameful that after 73 years of Independence, we still keep them away from the mainstream.
In my house our Dobie, dog carer and cleaner of house and the driver do not enter into our house and their activities are limited upto the entrance door of house. My wife, son and mother in law, brother in law are still following the old standards of separate plates and cups for them. They all respect them for the work done though.
We feed them with food and tea, coffee etc. My family respect them and are kinder than me in treatment. They allow them to play and mingle with their children and our children. Our untouchability is only not allowing them inside the house. I have to respect my family members. So, I do not fight with them. I speak to them with respect and treat as a member of my family which in not liked by family. I believe in the "ondrey kulam , oruvaney devan" philosophy.
Even though all politicians say that all human beings are equal, they will not implement it truely. Unless all the so called downtrodden get educated and more rights conscious, the status quo will continue. But slowly thing are changing and people are getting more knowledge of their rights and the mindset of upper class has to change at the same time.
If the ladies of the household are more generous, it may change a bit earlier. I am not a brahmin hater and somehow, I have very very few Brahmin friends who are broad minded ones and liberal all with other castes and moving friendly.
I really I hate all the activities of BJP and Modi. Pl do not get the wrong impression just because I am forwarding the messages I get about Modi.
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Comment -2
About Dalits. They along with Muslims constitute the majority of the Indian polity. Current moves are to disenfranchise initially All outcasts (everybody who’s is not a Brahmin, Kshatriya , Vysia or Sudra. Next step will be to play the shatrya, vysia and sudras against each other and maintain Brahmin supremacy.
Ofcourse the servile cops will gun down all dissent and criminalise all opposition by foisting cases that will take years and a fortune to throw out of courts which will be stuffed with loyalists.
------------------------------------------------------------
Comment -3
Equality Journey of India.
One of the key strategies of Mahatma Gandhiji to prepare for India’s independence was to integrate all Indians in the subcontinent to have one equal identity. India was then divided by kingdoms, languages, religion, caste etc. The concept of equality and unity was the basis of integration. Removing untouchability and the misused caste system prevalent for centuries was a major hindrance to integration.
Unity of all Indians was critical to create a unified force to drive away the British invaders. This was done painstakingly through non violence and India gained freedom to govern in it’s own way.
After Independence, for the first time, all Indians were equal and India was one country in 1947.
The first drive was to create a constitution which ensures the equality of people so that the unity in strength continued forever to maintain a safe and strong future. We embraced democracy as it was ideal to ensure all Indians have equal rights to vote and all voices are heard. India is since then the largest democracy in the world and also has the largest diversity in its population.
While there is partial success in India, there is a need for a lot of changes to move to a true democracy.
People from any background and caste can hope to reach the highest and most powerful positions in India today in both government and private sectors. All Indians still have one vote each which is the greatest power for democracy. Professions are no more based on caste but rooted on capability.
The politicians however had to fight for votes and they smartly decided on wooing the voters based on the age old caste system.
Today democracy in India is being managed by the politicians based on the divide and rule policy which the British used to control India.
The poorest voter is swayed by caste ideology or cash compensation to ensure the politicians win and gain freedom for 5 years of ruling the masses. The caste system is used as a basis of getting votes and it's quite common to predict elections on the basis of the caste of the region and the caste of the candidate.
Dictatorship can be unleashed even in this democracy. The systems are still inadequate to safeguard this.
In some families and business, caste is still being used as a means of stamping people. Jobs in private sectors are based on this mindset too. The HR managers tend to use their personal bias. Salaries are decided based on such criteria.
I dream of an India where caste as a word is removed from the vocabulary of all Indians.
People who are economically low should be boosted with free education and health. Elections should be won by the candidate’s capability. Jobs in government and private sector should be based on meritocracy. Religion should be a private choice and not a public drive.
The youth of India which is more than half the population can take this to Democracy Version 2. There is still hope for more positive changes to happen.
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Comment 4
My short view is that the country has failed a majority of its people for decades. There is no excuse. The reason has been the domination of upper castes in both government and particularly education, which has prevented enough people from the various deprived classes (the untouchable and the tribals) from learning enough to drive change by themselves.
As a result, change is driven by 'people like us', once almost solely birthright upper classes, but now including some uppity people like me, who are not counted in the twice born, yet by luck of birth (my father was highly educated and very closely known to the political elite) still managed to beat the odds.
Since we did not have to face upper caste discrimination, we have to try and put ourselves in the 'shoes' of those who do. It is a very unsatisfactory way of truly bringing about transformational change
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Comment 5
Ram, Regarding untouchability. It was never practiced on STs. I don't think anyone these days is for. Almost all are aggressively against.
Incidence has come down drastically. NGOs , churches etc magnify. They have to get foreign funding based on these studies. A friend was telling me that Pulayans Church next to his house is quite well off these days. Even though they have become Christians, other Christians do not enter it.
There are always some rotten apples. Mostly in pockets of remote villages. Mobility has given a death blow to untouchability. Can happen only where everyone knows the others grandfather.
These days people want to get into ST category.
SC & ST are listed communities in the schedule to the Constitution.
Dalit is a word used instead of Gandhi's Harijan (children of God) which many objected to. Ambedkar etc. objected to the term as he felt it was Condescending. He cleverly included ST also in general parlance as Dalit.
SCs of Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Muslims are looked down upon by the other co-religionists.
STs are Tribes, the original inhabitants. They have their own culture, sense of belonging and never been outcastes.
Dalit means "broken people." Dalits were formerly known as "untouchables." Dalits live at the bottom of India's rigid social order known as the caste system.
The word Dalit was perhaps first used by Jyotirao Phule in the nineteenth century, in the context of the oppression faced by the erstwhile "untouchable" castes of the twice-born Hindus. ... Though the name Dalit has been in existence since the nineteenth century it was Dr. B.R. Ambedkar who popularised the term.
Untouchability was practiced on STs, widely earlier. This was due to general ignorance and tendency to demean the Tribals. I feel that DNA of STs will be different from other Hindus, since they are racially different.
DNA of SCs however will not be different from other Hindus. They are outcastes, as many many fathered in previous generations by Non SCs meaning Upper Caste Hindus (You Know what I mean). There will be no difference in DNA.
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COMMENT - 6
I strongly oppose untouchability as practiced by upercaste Hindus. The basic tenets of Sikhism totally oppose it. The Gurdwaras all over the world are open to all irrespective of caste and religion. After the recitations from Guru Granth Sahib, Langer is served to all sitting on ground together irrespective of caste. The Guru Granth Sahib contains the teachings of 6 Gurus, and 34 or so Sufi Saints whose teaching are akin to Guru Nanak Dev ji, they include Bhagat Ravidas, who was chamar by caste, Bhagat Kabir ji and Shekh Farid ji.
Guru Gobind Singh ji took special action to abolish the caste differences and ordained all Sikhs not to write family name. None if the Gurus wrote their family name. However this directive got weakened over the decades and time due to the influence of Hindu Religion. However even today, many Sikhs do not write family names.
Personally and based on my religious beliefs, all are born equal and one becomeS low (neech) or high caste (the honored one) based on his deeds.
Those who think good and do good for the fellow human beings are to be revered.
It our Karma, our thinking which makes us high or low.
I have not witnessed untouchability in Punjab the way it is practiced in South. However, usually people of higher castes do not marry the Scheduled Castes. Exceptions are there of course. In my first job my boss was a Scheduled Caste IAS officer married to a Brahman lady. He became an IAS from general category, was a brilliant administrator and a humble man.
His wife left him after birth of a son, seeing the dirty habits of his kith and kin who often visited his home and stayed with them as guests. I advised him to have independent home and not to entertain people from his village at his home and brought reconciliation between him and his wife.
Many ladies belonging to scheduled castes work as house maids in the homes of upper castes in Punjab both in cities and villages. However, marriage between upper caste and scheduled castes is still frowned upon and uncommon.
I have not observed caste restrictions on visiting Hindu temples at least in cities. As far as Gurdwaras are concerned, I can vouch that no untouchability is practiced in any form.
Personally, I am totally opposed to any form of discrimination based on caste. I hope that I have made my position very clear. 🙏
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Comment - 7
I'm an army guy till my death. To me all men and women are equal and each one deserves to be respected if not loved.
We had untouchables in my village when I was a kid. But my grandfather who was a school teacher used to get the lower caste workers into our house and even eat with them. I loved my grandfather for what he did.. as I grew up untouchability vanished.
I know now untouchability is there in most parts of the country. I'm totally against it.
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Comment - 8
I did follow your link but could not find commentary, only photos.
I have not personally experienced untouchability, but am certainly aware of the issue.
My comments are as follows:
1. The govt does not mandate untouchability. But it does try to address income equality by offering welfare benefits to poorer sections of society.
2. In India, lower income groups have historically been badly treated (ie, in an undignified manner). This is particularly noticeable with household servants who don't have regular hours or benefits.
3. Untouchability is a social issue. No govt supports it, yet as a practical matter it is hard to enforce laws designed against it.
4. I don't think you can change an earlier generation's views on this, particularly in the rural areas. However, I believe the younger generation has less tolerance for this practice compared to the previous generation.
5. Therefore, things will improve over time, particularly as the untouchables become more aware of their rights. The younger generation are more liberal and less tolerant of social practices they don't agree with.
6. The eventual solution is to raise living standards and incomes so that untouchables are less vulnerable. Ironically, this means more global warming.
7. I am not into perceived social injustices at all. I believe in doing the right and dignified action with people in come into contact with, be they servants, family , friends or others.
I am responsible for my actions, not those of others. I leave do-gooding to better qualified people than myself.
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Comment 9
There’s no caste system in Islam, Ram. Many keep to their traditional ways of thinking. In fact I do not agree to the having of sects in Islam.
Like Sunni, Shia etc
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Comment No 10
I think you would find this in every brand of Hindu Indian. To think one is superior appears to be a human (failing) tendency, perhaps ego-fulfilling. There are some interesting inscriptions.
Sthapathies are statue makers, and is a skilled community who still exist in regions of India, I know of Thiruvallur Sthapathies, who claim their lineage to ancient times. Since they sculpt God statues, they "feel" they are more superior than Brahmins. In a 10th century inscription a group of Sthapathies made an appeal to the Chola king requesting them that their land be tax free. The Brahmins were always excluded from taxation, a privilege offered by the monarch. In that appeal they compare themselves to be of a Brahmin-like community. Here it was for a practical reason of not paying taxes.
In modern India it is more a case of Ego, I think. I do not think their orientation is "Hindutva" such as RSS, but more from a business side thinking the businesses should enjoy tax-free status, just like the Brahmins did in the ancient times.
I think there were people who self declared themselves as Brahmins not just for the tax status alone but to enjoy the societal privileged status. During Chola period killing a Brahmin was considered the highest crime. Brahmin community enjoyed a very protected status because they took care of the Gods.
The Brahmins took care of the Hindu Gods but were very poor and had no power in the society, so they converted Kings and the Royal Family who had both money and Power and armies and gave them the Kshatria Upper Caste just below the Brahmins. Over Time the Kshatriyas, like the Nairs of Kerala, who had the Brahmins at their beck and call began believing they were superior to Brahmins This explains why Rajputs and Nairs etc are more aggressive in wanting to make India a Hindu Rashtra.
Received following Comments:
Comment: 1
I personally have no difference between the touchable and untouchable. The prevalence of untouchabIlity all over TN is obvious except on big cities and towns. In villages and suburbans, there is gradual reduction of differentiation. The double glass system and separate burial or burning ghats are also prevalent in small villages. But it is really shameful that after 73 years of Independence, we still keep them away from the mainstream.
In my house our Dobie, dog carer and cleaner of house and the driver do not enter into our house and their activities are limited upto the entrance door of house. My wife, son and mother in law, brother in law are still following the old standards of separate plates and cups for them. They all respect them for the work done though.
We feed them with food and tea, coffee etc. My family respect them and are kinder than me in treatment. They allow them to play and mingle with their children and our children. Our untouchability is only not allowing them inside the house. I have to respect my family members. So, I do not fight with them. I speak to them with respect and treat as a member of my family which in not liked by family. I believe in the "ondrey kulam , oruvaney devan" philosophy.
Even though all politicians say that all human beings are equal, they will not implement it truely. Unless all the so called downtrodden get educated and more rights conscious, the status quo will continue. But slowly thing are changing and people are getting more knowledge of their rights and the mindset of upper class has to change at the same time.
If the ladies of the household are more generous, it may change a bit earlier. I am not a brahmin hater and somehow, I have very very few Brahmin friends who are broad minded ones and liberal all with other castes and moving friendly.
I really I hate all the activities of BJP and Modi. Pl do not get the wrong impression just because I am forwarding the messages I get about Modi.
---------------------------------------------------------
Comment -2
About Dalits. They along with Muslims constitute the majority of the Indian polity. Current moves are to disenfranchise initially All outcasts (everybody who’s is not a Brahmin, Kshatriya , Vysia or Sudra. Next step will be to play the shatrya, vysia and sudras against each other and maintain Brahmin supremacy.
Ofcourse the servile cops will gun down all dissent and criminalise all opposition by foisting cases that will take years and a fortune to throw out of courts which will be stuffed with loyalists.
------------------------------------------------------------
Comment -3
Equality Journey of India.
One of the key strategies of Mahatma Gandhiji to prepare for India’s independence was to integrate all Indians in the subcontinent to have one equal identity. India was then divided by kingdoms, languages, religion, caste etc. The concept of equality and unity was the basis of integration. Removing untouchability and the misused caste system prevalent for centuries was a major hindrance to integration.
Unity of all Indians was critical to create a unified force to drive away the British invaders. This was done painstakingly through non violence and India gained freedom to govern in it’s own way.
After Independence, for the first time, all Indians were equal and India was one country in 1947.
The first drive was to create a constitution which ensures the equality of people so that the unity in strength continued forever to maintain a safe and strong future. We embraced democracy as it was ideal to ensure all Indians have equal rights to vote and all voices are heard. India is since then the largest democracy in the world and also has the largest diversity in its population.
While there is partial success in India, there is a need for a lot of changes to move to a true democracy.
People from any background and caste can hope to reach the highest and most powerful positions in India today in both government and private sectors. All Indians still have one vote each which is the greatest power for democracy. Professions are no more based on caste but rooted on capability.
The politicians however had to fight for votes and they smartly decided on wooing the voters based on the age old caste system.
Today democracy in India is being managed by the politicians based on the divide and rule policy which the British used to control India.
The poorest voter is swayed by caste ideology or cash compensation to ensure the politicians win and gain freedom for 5 years of ruling the masses. The caste system is used as a basis of getting votes and it's quite common to predict elections on the basis of the caste of the region and the caste of the candidate.
Dictatorship can be unleashed even in this democracy. The systems are still inadequate to safeguard this.
In some families and business, caste is still being used as a means of stamping people. Jobs in private sectors are based on this mindset too. The HR managers tend to use their personal bias. Salaries are decided based on such criteria.
I dream of an India where caste as a word is removed from the vocabulary of all Indians.
People who are economically low should be boosted with free education and health. Elections should be won by the candidate’s capability. Jobs in government and private sector should be based on meritocracy. Religion should be a private choice and not a public drive.
The youth of India which is more than half the population can take this to Democracy Version 2. There is still hope for more positive changes to happen.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Comment 4
My short view is that the country has failed a majority of its people for decades. There is no excuse. The reason has been the domination of upper castes in both government and particularly education, which has prevented enough people from the various deprived classes (the untouchable and the tribals) from learning enough to drive change by themselves.
As a result, change is driven by 'people like us', once almost solely birthright upper classes, but now including some uppity people like me, who are not counted in the twice born, yet by luck of birth (my father was highly educated and very closely known to the political elite) still managed to beat the odds.
Since we did not have to face upper caste discrimination, we have to try and put ourselves in the 'shoes' of those who do. It is a very unsatisfactory way of truly bringing about transformational change
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Comment 5
Ram, Regarding untouchability. It was never practiced on STs. I don't think anyone these days is for. Almost all are aggressively against.
Incidence has come down drastically. NGOs , churches etc magnify. They have to get foreign funding based on these studies. A friend was telling me that Pulayans Church next to his house is quite well off these days. Even though they have become Christians, other Christians do not enter it.
There are always some rotten apples. Mostly in pockets of remote villages. Mobility has given a death blow to untouchability. Can happen only where everyone knows the others grandfather.
These days people want to get into ST category.
SC & ST are listed communities in the schedule to the Constitution.
Dalit is a word used instead of Gandhi's Harijan (children of God) which many objected to. Ambedkar etc. objected to the term as he felt it was Condescending. He cleverly included ST also in general parlance as Dalit.
SCs of Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Muslims are looked down upon by the other co-religionists.
STs are Tribes, the original inhabitants. They have their own culture, sense of belonging and never been outcastes.
Dalit means "broken people." Dalits were formerly known as "untouchables." Dalits live at the bottom of India's rigid social order known as the caste system.
The word Dalit was perhaps first used by Jyotirao Phule in the nineteenth century, in the context of the oppression faced by the erstwhile "untouchable" castes of the twice-born Hindus. ... Though the name Dalit has been in existence since the nineteenth century it was Dr. B.R. Ambedkar who popularised the term.
Untouchability was practiced on STs, widely earlier. This was due to general ignorance and tendency to demean the Tribals. I feel that DNA of STs will be different from other Hindus, since they are racially different.
DNA of SCs however will not be different from other Hindus. They are outcastes, as many many fathered in previous generations by Non SCs meaning Upper Caste Hindus (You Know what I mean). There will be no difference in DNA.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
COMMENT - 6
I strongly oppose untouchability as practiced by upercaste Hindus. The basic tenets of Sikhism totally oppose it. The Gurdwaras all over the world are open to all irrespective of caste and religion. After the recitations from Guru Granth Sahib, Langer is served to all sitting on ground together irrespective of caste. The Guru Granth Sahib contains the teachings of 6 Gurus, and 34 or so Sufi Saints whose teaching are akin to Guru Nanak Dev ji, they include Bhagat Ravidas, who was chamar by caste, Bhagat Kabir ji and Shekh Farid ji.
Guru Gobind Singh ji took special action to abolish the caste differences and ordained all Sikhs not to write family name. None if the Gurus wrote their family name. However this directive got weakened over the decades and time due to the influence of Hindu Religion. However even today, many Sikhs do not write family names.
Personally and based on my religious beliefs, all are born equal and one becomeS low (neech) or high caste (the honored one) based on his deeds.
Those who think good and do good for the fellow human beings are to be revered.
It our Karma, our thinking which makes us high or low.
I have not witnessed untouchability in Punjab the way it is practiced in South. However, usually people of higher castes do not marry the Scheduled Castes. Exceptions are there of course. In my first job my boss was a Scheduled Caste IAS officer married to a Brahman lady. He became an IAS from general category, was a brilliant administrator and a humble man.
His wife left him after birth of a son, seeing the dirty habits of his kith and kin who often visited his home and stayed with them as guests. I advised him to have independent home and not to entertain people from his village at his home and brought reconciliation between him and his wife.
Many ladies belonging to scheduled castes work as house maids in the homes of upper castes in Punjab both in cities and villages. However, marriage between upper caste and scheduled castes is still frowned upon and uncommon.
I have not observed caste restrictions on visiting Hindu temples at least in cities. As far as Gurdwaras are concerned, I can vouch that no untouchability is practiced in any form.
Personally, I am totally opposed to any form of discrimination based on caste. I hope that I have made my position very clear. 🙏
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Comment - 7
I'm an army guy till my death. To me all men and women are equal and each one deserves to be respected if not loved.
We had untouchables in my village when I was a kid. But my grandfather who was a school teacher used to get the lower caste workers into our house and even eat with them. I loved my grandfather for what he did.. as I grew up untouchability vanished.
I know now untouchability is there in most parts of the country. I'm totally against it.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Comment - 8
I did follow your link but could not find commentary, only photos.
I have not personally experienced untouchability, but am certainly aware of the issue.
My comments are as follows:
1. The govt does not mandate untouchability. But it does try to address income equality by offering welfare benefits to poorer sections of society.
2. In India, lower income groups have historically been badly treated (ie, in an undignified manner). This is particularly noticeable with household servants who don't have regular hours or benefits.
3. Untouchability is a social issue. No govt supports it, yet as a practical matter it is hard to enforce laws designed against it.
4. I don't think you can change an earlier generation's views on this, particularly in the rural areas. However, I believe the younger generation has less tolerance for this practice compared to the previous generation.
5. Therefore, things will improve over time, particularly as the untouchables become more aware of their rights. The younger generation are more liberal and less tolerant of social practices they don't agree with.
6. The eventual solution is to raise living standards and incomes so that untouchables are less vulnerable. Ironically, this means more global warming.
7. I am not into perceived social injustices at all. I believe in doing the right and dignified action with people in come into contact with, be they servants, family , friends or others.
I am responsible for my actions, not those of others. I leave do-gooding to better qualified people than myself.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Comment 9
There’s no caste system in Islam, Ram. Many keep to their traditional ways of thinking. In fact I do not agree to the having of sects in Islam.
Like Sunni, Shia etc
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Comment No 10
I think you would find this in every brand of Hindu Indian. To think one is superior appears to be a human (failing) tendency, perhaps ego-fulfilling. There are some interesting inscriptions.
Sthapathies are statue makers, and is a skilled community who still exist in regions of India, I know of Thiruvallur Sthapathies, who claim their lineage to ancient times. Since they sculpt God statues, they "feel" they are more superior than Brahmins. In a 10th century inscription a group of Sthapathies made an appeal to the Chola king requesting them that their land be tax free. The Brahmins were always excluded from taxation, a privilege offered by the monarch. In that appeal they compare themselves to be of a Brahmin-like community. Here it was for a practical reason of not paying taxes.
In modern India it is more a case of Ego, I think. I do not think their orientation is "Hindutva" such as RSS, but more from a business side thinking the businesses should enjoy tax-free status, just like the Brahmins did in the ancient times.
I think there were people who self declared themselves as Brahmins not just for the tax status alone but to enjoy the societal privileged status. During Chola period killing a Brahmin was considered the highest crime. Brahmin community enjoyed a very protected status because they took care of the Gods.
The Brahmins took care of the Hindu Gods but were very poor and had no power in the society, so they converted Kings and the Royal Family who had both money and Power and armies and gave them the Kshatria Upper Caste just below the Brahmins. Over Time the Kshatriyas, like the Nairs of Kerala, who had the Brahmins at their beck and call began believing they were superior to Brahmins This explains why Rajputs and Nairs etc are more aggressive in wanting to make India a Hindu Rashtra.
